On the non-existent Clan Gunn crest badge, coat of arms and motto
Crest badges, much like clan tartans, do not have a long history, and owe much to Victorian era romanticism...'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_crest_badge accessed 15 April 2013
'there is no such thing as a "Clan Coat of Arms". The arms are the personal property of the Chief. The Crest of the Chief is worn by members of the Clan and of approved Septs and followers of the Clan within a strap and buckle surround bearing the Chief's motto. ...
One cannot have a Crest without first having a Shield of Arms.'
Lord Lyon document 'Coat of Arms and Crest Badges' 2013
One cannot have a Crest without first having a Shield of Arms.'
Lord Lyon document 'Coat of Arms and Crest Badges' 2013
The full document of Coats of Arms and Crest Badges by Lord Lyon can be found at http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-2.pdf and it states
Now given there has been no Clan Gunn Chief recognised by any Lord Lyon there are no Gunn Chief granted arms so there is legally no Crest Badge for the Gunns. Nor is there a motto as that is derived from the non-existent 'Chief' coat-of-arms. I note that the Clan Gunn Society UK - http://www.clangunnsociety.org/ accessed 17 January 2014 - says that the Gunns are 'classified as an armigerous Clan' ; to be an armiger requires that a coat of arms has been awarded to the chief, or even a person. A clan can not be armigerous ( 'clans don’t have coats of arms or mottos; armigers do. '... the Rt Hon. The Viscount Dunrossil http://www.scotarmigers.net/ accessed 17 January 2014).
Worth noting that in James Logan's The Scottish Gael Volume 1 (first published 1831), pages 300-302, there is a list of all Scottish Clan badges and it does not include Gunn. This suggests that the present invention was created after that date.
PART TWO
I also note from the same Lord Lyon source -
And from the Lord Lyon document (which only matters if you think the current Clan Gunn crest badge is legal);
Clan Societies, Officials and clansmen who have reason to use the Crest Badge as a monochrome line drawing on stationery should add beneath it the words "Crest Badge of a member of the Clan." to make it clear that the Crest Badge is not being misappropriated by the Clan Society or Official involved. It is the Crest Badge of ALL clansmen...'
So, given there is no Chief of the Clan Gunn approved by Lord Lyon there is no Clan Gunn crest badge but if you think there is such a badge then that wording should be applied by Clan Societies when using the crest. Interesting that the Clan Gunn Society North America seems to be offering something which Lord Lyon would very much disapprove
PART THREE
Now given there have been no Clan Gunn chiefs accepted by Lord Lyon there are no Clan Gunn Chief armorials to make a legal Clan Gunn crest badge. That's just straight Scottish law. So where did the 'unofficial crest badge' come from? What we have seems to be part use of the Gunn-Munro of Braemore coat-of-arms. Now the Braemore Gunns are interesting as they were considered Chieftain of the Clan Gunn in Caithness by some; It’s worth remembering the only nearly contemporary account – that of Sir Robert Gordon - ‘absolutely writes of John Gunn alias Robson, as “chieftain of the Clan Gunn in Caithness” again and again’ (Thomas Sinclair page 175). As well, in 1775 a letter from George Gunn Munro of this Robson line says ‘I consider myself the Chief (of the Clan Gunn)’ Mark Rugg Gunn page 175.
Yes, just as the great fictional reinvention of Scottish history was warming up a real coat of arms - which included some Gunn - came into existence. Have a look at http://www.thetreemaker.com/family-coat-g/gunn/scotland.html which shows the shield of arms for George Gunn Munro / Gun Munro of Braemore. Note the top showing the hand with upraised sword. I suspect this is the origin of the non-legal Clan Gunn crest badge.
I have been informed that
a quartered coat of arms was matriculated in name of George Gun Munro of Braemore on 18 November 1800 wherein he is recorded as 'the heir and Representative of the late Sir George Munro of Poyntzfield his Uncle'. ... the shield of arms shown on the website you mention is a reasonably accurate representation of the Arms for Gun that appear in the second quarter of the Arms for George Gun Munro of Braemore. Arms for Munro are in the first and fourth quarters with Arms for Poyntz in the third quarter. The crest is an eagle rising Proper, clearly for Munro rather than Gun as it follows the style of crest for the surname Munro (however spelt) who have eagles in various positions. ...
PART FOUR
- Many established and reputable Clans do not have a Chief, where the Chief’s line has died out or been lost — possibly through long past emigration of the line who are now heirs to the Chiefship. No Chief can exist for such Clans till a claimant comes forward and proves to the Lord Lyon King of Arms that he is the senior heir, when the Lord Lyon will Officially Recognise him as the Chief ... In some such cases, the Arms and Crest of a former Chief are known from past records, though not the present Chief. His clansmen may wear the Crest Badge of the last known Chief, which would be the same as that of his present undiscovered successor. In some cases there is no such record, and the clansmen have no Crest Badge for their Chief at all, nor will have until a Chief is discovered. (Bold is by me.)
Now given there has been no Clan Gunn Chief recognised by any Lord Lyon there are no Gunn Chief granted arms so there is legally no Crest Badge for the Gunns. Nor is there a motto as that is derived from the non-existent 'Chief' coat-of-arms. I note that the Clan Gunn Society UK - http://www.clangunnsociety.org/ accessed 17 January 2014 - says that the Gunns are 'classified as an armigerous Clan' ; to be an armiger requires that a coat of arms has been awarded to the chief, or even a person. A clan can not be armigerous ( 'clans don’t have coats of arms or mottos; armigers do. '... the Rt Hon. The Viscount Dunrossil http://www.scotarmigers.net/ accessed 17 January 2014).
Worth noting that in James Logan's The Scottish Gael Volume 1 (first published 1831), pages 300-302, there is a list of all Scottish Clan badges and it does not include Gunn. This suggests that the present invention was created after that date.
PART TWO
I also note from the same Lord Lyon source -
- The strap—and—buckle is NOT a "Garter", and it should NEVER be shown coloured blue with gold buckle and edgings like the insignium of the Order of the Garter.
And from the Lord Lyon document (which only matters if you think the current Clan Gunn crest badge is legal);
Clan Societies, Officials and clansmen who have reason to use the Crest Badge as a monochrome line drawing on stationery should add beneath it the words "Crest Badge of a member of the Clan." to make it clear that the Crest Badge is not being misappropriated by the Clan Society or Official involved. It is the Crest Badge of ALL clansmen...'
So, given there is no Chief of the Clan Gunn approved by Lord Lyon there is no Clan Gunn crest badge but if you think there is such a badge then that wording should be applied by Clan Societies when using the crest. Interesting that the Clan Gunn Society North America seems to be offering something which Lord Lyon would very much disapprove
PART THREE
Now given there have been no Clan Gunn chiefs accepted by Lord Lyon there are no Clan Gunn Chief armorials to make a legal Clan Gunn crest badge. That's just straight Scottish law. So where did the 'unofficial crest badge' come from? What we have seems to be part use of the Gunn-Munro of Braemore coat-of-arms. Now the Braemore Gunns are interesting as they were considered Chieftain of the Clan Gunn in Caithness by some; It’s worth remembering the only nearly contemporary account – that of Sir Robert Gordon - ‘absolutely writes of John Gunn alias Robson, as “chieftain of the Clan Gunn in Caithness” again and again’ (Thomas Sinclair page 175). As well, in 1775 a letter from George Gunn Munro of this Robson line says ‘I consider myself the Chief (of the Clan Gunn)’ Mark Rugg Gunn page 175.
Yes, just as the great fictional reinvention of Scottish history was warming up a real coat of arms - which included some Gunn - came into existence. Have a look at http://www.thetreemaker.com/family-coat-g/gunn/scotland.html which shows the shield of arms for George Gunn Munro / Gun Munro of Braemore. Note the top showing the hand with upraised sword. I suspect this is the origin of the non-legal Clan Gunn crest badge.
I have been informed that
a quartered coat of arms was matriculated in name of George Gun Munro of Braemore on 18 November 1800 wherein he is recorded as 'the heir and Representative of the late Sir George Munro of Poyntzfield his Uncle'. ... the shield of arms shown on the website you mention is a reasonably accurate representation of the Arms for Gun that appear in the second quarter of the Arms for George Gun Munro of Braemore. Arms for Munro are in the first and fourth quarters with Arms for Poyntz in the third quarter. The crest is an eagle rising Proper, clearly for Munro rather than Gun as it follows the style of crest for the surname Munro (however spelt) who have eagles in various positions. ...
PART FOUR
- A name group, which does not have a chief, has no official position in the law of Scotland. Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw Bt http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-11.pdf
- The Crest is the exclusively personal property of the Clan Chief, and it is fully protected to him by the law in Scotland. ... Ownership of Arms and Crest is PERSONAL, ... Although the Crest Badge is purchased by and is therefore owned by the clansman, the heraldic Crest and Motto on it belong to the Chief and NOT to the clansman.... Clan Societies, Officials and clansmen who have reason to use the Crest Badge on stationery should add beneath it the words "Crest Badge of a member of the Clan. to make it clear that the Crest Badge is not being misappropriated by the Clan Society or official involved. It is the Crest Badge of ALL clansmen, whether members of Clan Societies or not, and non—members may not be excluded if they are clansmen ... In some such cases, the Arms and Crest of a former Chief are known from past records, though not the present Chief. His clansmen may wear the Crest Badge of the last known Chief, which would be the same as that of his present undiscovered successor. In some cases there is no such record, and the clansmen have no Crest Badge for their Chief at all, nor will have until a Chief is discovered. Lord Lyon Information Leaflet Two
- There is no such thing as a "Clan coat of arms". Lord Lyon Information leaflet 10
