Clan Gunn Family Convention / Derbhfine 2015 - Clan Gunn Chief issue
The derbhfine is very much a last resort and should not consider proposing a person for chief unless there is no real hope that a genealogically related descendant could ever be found.
Lord Lyon King of Arms 19 February 2002 http://www.clanmacaulay.org.uk/node/69
Lord Lyon King of Arms 19 February 2002 http://www.clanmacaulay.org.uk/node/69
UPDATE - For an update on my view about the Clan Gunn Convention (Clan Gunn Chief) see http://clangunn.weebly.com/clan-gunn-blog/-concerning-the-clan-gunn-family-convention-clan-gunn-chief-issues-18-july-2015
A Clan Gunn Family Convention / Derbhfine has been called by Lord Lyon. I shall be at the meeting. There are many people genealogically related to the Clan Gunn Chiefs. The only relevant question for the Clan Gunn Family Convention is who is the most directly related to these past Chiefs.
Introduction
Lord Lyon has, following a petition, called a Clan Gunn Family Convention (derbhfine) to be held at the Ayre Hotel in Kirkwall on 18 July 2015.
I do not have the petition in front of me but the two texts I have relating to it are clear that the petition is not like the first petition in that this petition does not specifically mention converting the Commander to Chief. It is worth remembering the reason Lord Lyon rejected that first petition – ‘it has become evident that there are in all probability clear and proveable lines of descent senior to that of the present Commander’. In other words, the role of a Convention is to work out who is the person closest to the old Clan Gunn Chief line.
So what does this new petition say? One text says it is ‘to decide who the new Lord Lyon Morrow should be invited to recognise as our Chief’ and the other text suggests the petition is more open ‘No particular person is named as our proposed Chief, and the Family Convention can therefore consider anyone (or no one) for this position.’
However the idea that the Family Convention can choose who they want goes against Lord Lyon’s statement given at the start of this document and against Lord Lyon’s ‘Guidance as regards the holding of a Derbhfine or Family Convention’. This ‘Guidance’ as it applies to the Clan Gunn, states–
(1) Where a blood link to a past Chief or Head of Name is likely but is not conclusively proven and it is wished to propose a particular person in that situation to be recognised as Chief.
(2) Where the main line of descent from a past Chief has died out and it is wished to recognise the Representer of a cadet line as Chief.
http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/656.html
Concerning Lord Lyon’s point 1 ‘blood link to a past Chief’ –
Lord Lyon’s words that a Convention should firstly consider, as Chief, direct line descendants ‘not conclusively proven’ are crucial. There are three main lines of direct descent (‘blood link’) from the Chief alive today. These are
· Gunns of Corrish see http://clangunn.weebly.com/gunn-chief--mckaimish-lines-4-gunn-of-corrish.html and http://clangunn.weebly.com/george-gunn-of-corrish.html
· Esther Gunn – see http://clangunn.weebly.com/gunn-chief--mckaimish-lines-1-esther.html and http://clangunn.weebly.com/esther-gunn-part-two.html Esther Gunn is recognised by Lord Lyon.
· ‘Unknown Gunn’ who married John Gunn of / in Kinbrace. This ‘Unknown’ Gunn and marriage to John Gunn of / in Kinbrace is recognised by Lord Lyon. The Kinbrace story (and genealogy) as given in the history books is mainly wrong, this is clearly shown by primary source material in the Sutherland Estate documents in the National Library of Scotland. These Sutherland Estate documents show that the genealogy of the Kinbrace line is from Donald the Scholar (a descendant from William Beag younger son of Chief Alexander MacHamish). But the real concern is with the descendants of ‘John Gunn of / in Kinbrace’ who married the ‘unknown Gunn’ daughter of the Chief. There is a lot more on this line – and its living descendants - to come…
Lord Lyon’s point 2 about cadet lines is also of real interest. I am totally convinced that the main line of Chief descent has not died out and I am also very convinced that cadet lines from the Chief are very much alive and well, not least as I am descended from one of them. See http://clangunn1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/clan-gunn-chief-needed.html which is now out of date on the news, but has major detail on one cadet line (mine).
On a different cadet line issue I note Gunn of Rhives. Lord Lyon states the male line has died out, but the female line has not.
Plan of action
The Convention should firstly request from Lord Lyon the grounds by which people can be disqualified from being a Chief (the various alienage laws etc) as this will help clarify the following points -
· There are definitely at least three valid lines of direct Clan Gunn Chief lines able to be found - the Convention needs to research these to see which, if any, are valid to legally be Clan Gunn Chief. I suspect one, at least, is certainly valid. One must note the 'likely but is not conclusively proven' words of Lord Lyon.
· In the unlikely event all these direct lines being invalid then research should be given to the myriad cadet lines from ‘John Gunn of Killearnan and Navidale’. I’m certainly a cadet line.
Summary
The only true Clan Chief is one with blood descent from earlier Chiefs. Lord Lyon’s guidelines for the Convention makes this quite clear. Randomly choosing a person to be Chief, whilst direct, living bloodline descendants of the Clan Gunn Chief are known, would be an absolute travesty and an insult to history.
A Clan Gunn Family Convention / Derbhfine has been called by Lord Lyon. I shall be at the meeting. There are many people genealogically related to the Clan Gunn Chiefs. The only relevant question for the Clan Gunn Family Convention is who is the most directly related to these past Chiefs.
Introduction
Lord Lyon has, following a petition, called a Clan Gunn Family Convention (derbhfine) to be held at the Ayre Hotel in Kirkwall on 18 July 2015.
I do not have the petition in front of me but the two texts I have relating to it are clear that the petition is not like the first petition in that this petition does not specifically mention converting the Commander to Chief. It is worth remembering the reason Lord Lyon rejected that first petition – ‘it has become evident that there are in all probability clear and proveable lines of descent senior to that of the present Commander’. In other words, the role of a Convention is to work out who is the person closest to the old Clan Gunn Chief line.
So what does this new petition say? One text says it is ‘to decide who the new Lord Lyon Morrow should be invited to recognise as our Chief’ and the other text suggests the petition is more open ‘No particular person is named as our proposed Chief, and the Family Convention can therefore consider anyone (or no one) for this position.’
However the idea that the Family Convention can choose who they want goes against Lord Lyon’s statement given at the start of this document and against Lord Lyon’s ‘Guidance as regards the holding of a Derbhfine or Family Convention’. This ‘Guidance’ as it applies to the Clan Gunn, states–
(1) Where a blood link to a past Chief or Head of Name is likely but is not conclusively proven and it is wished to propose a particular person in that situation to be recognised as Chief.
(2) Where the main line of descent from a past Chief has died out and it is wished to recognise the Representer of a cadet line as Chief.
http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/656.html
Concerning Lord Lyon’s point 1 ‘blood link to a past Chief’ –
Lord Lyon’s words that a Convention should firstly consider, as Chief, direct line descendants ‘not conclusively proven’ are crucial. There are three main lines of direct descent (‘blood link’) from the Chief alive today. These are
· Gunns of Corrish see http://clangunn.weebly.com/gunn-chief--mckaimish-lines-4-gunn-of-corrish.html and http://clangunn.weebly.com/george-gunn-of-corrish.html
· Esther Gunn – see http://clangunn.weebly.com/gunn-chief--mckaimish-lines-1-esther.html and http://clangunn.weebly.com/esther-gunn-part-two.html Esther Gunn is recognised by Lord Lyon.
· ‘Unknown Gunn’ who married John Gunn of / in Kinbrace. This ‘Unknown’ Gunn and marriage to John Gunn of / in Kinbrace is recognised by Lord Lyon. The Kinbrace story (and genealogy) as given in the history books is mainly wrong, this is clearly shown by primary source material in the Sutherland Estate documents in the National Library of Scotland. These Sutherland Estate documents show that the genealogy of the Kinbrace line is from Donald the Scholar (a descendant from William Beag younger son of Chief Alexander MacHamish). But the real concern is with the descendants of ‘John Gunn of / in Kinbrace’ who married the ‘unknown Gunn’ daughter of the Chief. There is a lot more on this line – and its living descendants - to come…
Lord Lyon’s point 2 about cadet lines is also of real interest. I am totally convinced that the main line of Chief descent has not died out and I am also very convinced that cadet lines from the Chief are very much alive and well, not least as I am descended from one of them. See http://clangunn1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/clan-gunn-chief-needed.html which is now out of date on the news, but has major detail on one cadet line (mine).
On a different cadet line issue I note Gunn of Rhives. Lord Lyon states the male line has died out, but the female line has not.
Plan of action
The Convention should firstly request from Lord Lyon the grounds by which people can be disqualified from being a Chief (the various alienage laws etc) as this will help clarify the following points -
· There are definitely at least three valid lines of direct Clan Gunn Chief lines able to be found - the Convention needs to research these to see which, if any, are valid to legally be Clan Gunn Chief. I suspect one, at least, is certainly valid. One must note the 'likely but is not conclusively proven' words of Lord Lyon.
· In the unlikely event all these direct lines being invalid then research should be given to the myriad cadet lines from ‘John Gunn of Killearnan and Navidale’. I’m certainly a cadet line.
Summary
The only true Clan Chief is one with blood descent from earlier Chiefs. Lord Lyon’s guidelines for the Convention makes this quite clear. Randomly choosing a person to be Chief, whilst direct, living bloodline descendants of the Clan Gunn Chief are known, would be an absolute travesty and an insult to history.